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First off, sorry for taking a while with this post. Saturday was DnD, Sunday was Easter, and Tuesday was my Niece's (who's living with us) birthday, and I received some bad news yesterday. Won't go into details, but it's been a busy past few days!
That said..
I'm going to be blunt - art staff constantly read what's being said here and try to take things on board. We've always listened to feedback and tried to make amends and improve sprites so the community stays happy, but when we're told our own rules don't make sense... I have to be honest - you're the ones here who don't know what you're talking about. I don't mean to come off as rude, but it's the truth - We, the artists, do. Its been explained time and time again how we do things, though I'm starting to think that words don't really cut it.
Perhaps an art stream showing these things visually and not through text will go over better. Probably stream the process of one or two recolors using sprites made just for the stream so you can share in our headaches in trying to make colors work. Would you guys be interested in that? I've been wanting to do an art stream for a while if anything.
I'm going to make a big post responding to everyone who posted here - separated into accordion sections for specific users, but I would highly encourage that people read everything, even if you don't have your own section - I will be as thorough as I can be, using lots of visual supplements and I will call back to previous posts made.
It being separated like this is done to cut down on post size and to organize everything - if it wasn't put into accordions this post would be 2384752839458 miles long and no one wants their eyes to be assaulted by great walls of text.
Note that this is organized by user, not by post order. It was easier this way, lol. So for the sake of my sanity and yours... in the words of Mario, here we go!
Always! Like mentioned, we do listen to you guys. Wouldn't keep this thread up and active if we didn't want to listen to what the user feedback was. The revamp for recolors will be happening, it just might take a bit to balance things.
You'd be amazed. >:(
Its a point of frustration as well for us, since one pixel carries a lot of weight on a sprite. Fiddling and moving things around is what we do for a living. Well, not a living. This is voluntary.
We're going to try and keep the melan colors as close as possible and just update things to be a little clearer. The hooves have white shines on them and its stupid. Defintely going to try and keep the feel of it though, just make sure that things flow a little better. Since Kantonian Ponyta and Galrian Ponyta lines share nothing in common with eachother color wise they're not necessarily having to be done together - their colors are not at all linked, unless you want to read into things far too deeply and be all "HMM, SHINY PONYTA'S FIRE IS BRIGHT BLUE AND GALRIAN PONYTAS HAVE TEAL ON THEM, THEY MUST BE LINKED"
We're not that insane or that conspiratorial. There's no link between them, lmao.
Unless... 👀
The eyes are a link to the crazy art math we had to do for Larvitar because there were connections everywhere. Some Pokémon really do be like that. John Madden levels of art math happening since things that used to match, don't and then new connections are made and then brand new colors appear out of no where. It's totally bonkers.
I mean, that's kinda my worry about a lot of Kantonian Pokemon (there's a few that look amazing that I'm planning to hunt in the future, Paras especially, and I kinda dread seeing them get potentially ruined XDDD) - will there ever be a point in which an albino or a melan is "finalized" and won't be changed further?
And, about that melan Skuntank... is that really gonna be the future melan Skuntank? If so, that's another melan that I'd hate to see change - the current melan looks so much like an actual skunk, it's adorable, and looks way darker and way more "melanistic" than dis green chonky stinky skunky boi :(( But I'm sure I'll get used to it in time!!! :D
If anything with paras specifically, the albino could stand to be a bit darker and more pink. The melan's shading might be darkened a bit. The eyes and teeth could also be fixed - weird green pixel on it and it has grey shading on the eyes. basically small tweaks would be needed for it but nothing too drastic.
It ain't gunna be the future melan lol, it was used as an example to explain Shazi's process. She mentioned earlier in another post that it was strictly used as an example - I edited my other post earlier to make that clearer.
..."Whatever the situation is"? Here's the situation, Sobble.
When variants use the same or similar colors as their original base formes or when pokemon are clearly an inverse to another pokemon in the same line... we should stop making that consistent? We should drop those very obvious patterns?
In "stop tying them to the originals", Should we additionally stop back-updating the original counterparts to make sure that their colors don't match up? Should we ignore previous feedback given as well and just... stop updating things? You're giving extremely mixed messages.
Of course no one is begging us to update sprites that are wrong. Of course no one is saying "hey you guys should update these". That's because you don't have access to all the back-end information and don't understand how this works - users are not the ones who get to make these calls. Users aren't the ones that get constant headaches over fighting with the intricate and temperate nature of how colors work - you guys are NOT the ones who need to sit and stare at sprites for literal hours to create a delicate balance in colors, which is easily destroyed because of how massive the color sections for green through indigo are. We need to take everything into account. Everything.
I would like to also remind you all that the Kanto update was over two years ago when we were still finding our rhythm with these things. I'm sorry you've been consistently disappointed with us. I also can't believe that you have the nerve to tell me that I'm inconveniencing users with constant quality updates and they are "unnecessary" and "don't have to happen", that it's "not worth our time", that we should "stop doing what we're doing", that we should just STOP "for the love of Arceus".
You don't get to tell us to stop improving. You don't get to tell us what the point of a variant is. That's incredibly rude and I can't believe that you would think that it's okay to tell us to stop developing, improving, and tell us, the art staff that we're finished with something.
Shazi mentioned earlier that these are not final colors for it, it was used as an example Pokémon, so this side note is completely unnecessary.
In addition to this, you're asking that we should abandon being consistent to stick to what's realistic. This is a post that Novie made talking about this very thing that you never responded to. You also never responded to a reply I made to you about a year ago explaining the same thing about Pokémon being Pokémon and not being realistic and following colors in nature at all. Don't misread me here - I'm not doing this to call you out specifically, I'm just providing supplemental information which explains things that you brought up before and I'm not sure that you've seen because you never replied to them. Hopefully I've addressed and explained things for you in this post.
Art math is absolutely not just the hue shift tool - the hue shift is used for a baseline idea to see where colors would end up but after, there are massive edits done to ensure the correct number of jumps are kept and that things still keep the same overall feel. Sometimes that mark is missed, but the beauty of it is that things are able to be worked on and edited once again after feedback is received.
With totems specifically they're updated to make sure that the colors are the same - shiny totems don't have different colors and if was done alongside the alolan variants just to make sure the colors didn't feel too same-y to one another since they have drastically different colors. In the case of the sandshrews specifically, this image shows them laid out side-by-side. Alolans are blue, and stay blue. Kantonians are yellow, green and red. So if we're making alternate colors for them we want to make sure their albinos and melans don't use the same exact colors - like all the albinos and melans being purple. That'd just be bad and not go over well and keep them looking different enough, so that's why we do variants alongside the originals.
As for not being onboard with the kanto re-revamps, that's fine. I know users weren't calling for it, and now apparently 'everyone' is complaining about the re-revamps.. PM me. PM me with the re-revamps that bother you most and I'll do my best to address them or explain why things were done a certain way. I know people are upset that I mentioned Ponytas will be getting updated, but I'm doing the best I can to keep the feel of the originals going while fixing some issues with them (like the bright white shine on the hooves on ponyta and rapidash).
And if the revamped recolors that I do on Kantonian and Galarian ponyta aren't liked? I'll try again based on new feedback. Things just take time.
I agree with you there and I'll be revisiting some albinos and melans personally to address the issues - like I said somewhere above, the point is that they're albinos and melans, not normal v2 and shiny v2 - the fact that their melan and albino comes first, so keeping lighter and darker themes going is the priority. That doesn't mean pitch black melans though, it just means if there's a white shiny then we're going to keep the melans darker.
I also talked about the galarian ponys and I agree, the colors could be better and I'm working on adjusting them while keeping what I said above in mind.
It's not so muuch about breaking the consistency thing and more about keeping in mind that they're Albinos and Melans first.
As for the current Kantoian ponyta thing, I'll do my best to keep it the same while fixing some glaringly obvious errors (like the shine on the hooves).
Some of them need redoing because the Kanto update is 2 years+ old and some aren't as good or as consistent as they could be. Some albinos for example could use better contrasting - they're either too light or its hard to make out some details.
I hope this doesn't come off the wrong way, but you don't get to tell us we're done with something or that something looks fine after the Big Update when there are very clearly some adjustments that can be made. The pichu line I linked in particular - the math is all wrong. They're yellow and orange, yet the albinos are white and dark greyish blue.
You're correct - they share no colors in common but that's entirely not the point. They're needing to be updated regardless because there are somethings that are off on the melans (bright white shine on the hooves is one thing) and they could use an update in colors either way. I'll be doing my best to keep the same feel of them going on but if things are wrong then they need fixing. Kanto was done over 2 years ago, but we're a lot more familiar with the system we have in place now.
It was better than the initial release of albino and melans but there are still things very wrong with kanto. Like I mentioned a little bit above.. there are things that are very clearly wrong with Kanto. The pichu line I just linked in particular - the math is all wrong. They're yellow and orange, yet the albinos are white and dark greyish blue. A re-revamp will fix that.
Thank you for showing your appreciation! Your appreciation is appreciated! These sprites are HARD man!
I get that you don't want something so beloved changed and that a lot of people agree, but unfortunately, they need to be updated as they don't fit with the current standards we have for recolors or match the rules - I'll be doing my damndest to keep the colors the same if I can or keeping the same feel of them but I can't promise that. I get that people don't see a reason for all these changes, but if there weren't any changes made, then progression wouldn't happen. We've already come so far with the site and the recolors project, and it wouldn't make sense to stop now.
Sorry you're not a fan of Haunter. But I'm also confused when people are clamouring for update for colors to get fixed then tell us to leave something alone. Which is it? Do we listen to you or not? Do we take community feedback on board and adjust things based on their feedback or do we just... shut down threads like this and refuse to listen to any feedback and never adjust anything?
You can't have your cake and eat it too - We can either stop updating things or listen to you guys.
And... I ain't sure what you're counting pixels for, but I'm glad you can count!
There's always something we can do - we can listen and learn from what the community is saying. But when we get mixed messages it's kinda hard to pick one to listen to. :p
Novie DIED doing those hands. RIP Novie. She was screaming for like... 6 hours straight. Unfortunately I don't have the exact time stamps, so enjoy that pieced together screenshot. I'll be sure to let her know the love and appreciation is passed along.
Lets break this down bit by bit:
Shiny darumaka is verrry contrasty as well: limegreen body and blue horns. Shiny darmanitan is also the same color, so the melan keeps the contrasty thing in mind.
I'll see if anything can be done to address this - sometimes lots of manual edits are needed to fix this sort of issue. Will pass this along to the team. :)
As for the rest of that paragraph, I'm glad you're liking it <3
The "need" comes from "well this is a new sprite, lets check the other one to make sure things still look good and don't need updating or so we don't use the same exact colors on the albino and melans and make them look the same". I don't think wanting to keep variants and originals separate in colors is a bad thing. If all the albinos and melans were the same color that'd be very boring.
Galar Ponyta line and Kanto ponyta lines don't share any colors, so making them consistent with eachother makes little sense.
If Galarian ponytas were never a thing, it would still be getting changed. Shazi has been working on Kanto in the background while she can (and yes, this HAS been mentioned) and updating things so ponyta would've been changed regardless - the fact that it has a galarian forme impacts nothing, especially since they don't share anything in common colorwise.. Kantonian ponytas are just getting updated because there are some issues with it, no matter how pretty the line is. I'll be doing my best to keep the same feel of them, but I can't make any promises.
Now that all that is out of the way, there's a few things I would like to address that doesn't apply to any one specific user.
Seeing things like "stop updating Kanto, it's finished!" "You're inconveniencing users" "you're making things worse with every update" "These look like literal trash" "I should have never hunted this thing if it was going to get updated" ....
This is exactly the kind of behaviour that we said to cut out - wording like the above examples - which I HAVE seen - come off as nothing but rude - not constructive at all and is not conducive to a positive discussion or outcome. This is not the way anyone should talk about our work or ANYONE's work for that matter. Remarks like this lead to damaging team morale, and it's part of my job to keep that up. I'm normally extremely mild mannered and chipper, but I'm putting my foot down - if anyone is going to talk this way again, here, in a public space, I'm telling you now - don't. Don't post this sort of thing. I will continue to call out people who think wording things like this is okay and not expect any kind of response, and in some extreme cases, outright remove posts. Users are allowed to criticise, but they're absolutely not allowed to tell us to stop doing things because "everyone hates what we do" and we should "just stop".
All that being said, we're never going to stop improving these sprites and listening to what you all have to say. Sure, it might take a few days for me to respond, but I like being thorough and responding as best I can. Hopefully some things have been cleared up, and I'm well aware that many more questions will come of this or I might be laughed at and criticised in private circles, but I'm fine with that. If a person is not willing to say such things to us in a reasonable and amicable manner, whether that's in public, DMs through discord or PMs on this site, then they simply prove that their words are nothing but vitriol and are not worth listening to. Let me make this simple - If you cannot give feedback without being rude then do not post here. If you are rude then you will be dealt with as per Rule 6 which may lead to possible eviction from the premises.
In the end, people are free to think what they want and voice their opinions to one another publicly, whether they're flattering or not. We don't mind people disliking things and telling us why - that's what helps us to improve, after all. What I am not fine with is users trying to tell me what we can and cannot do with something that we are working on. Your feedback is appreciated but we are absolutely not your servants or your work-horses, you do not get to order us to do what you want us to do. Tell us your wants and desires, express what you like and dislike - give us that feedback - but when the message we receive is "do what I want or you're trash", you're not the person we're ever going to listen to.
I will be locking this thread temporarily to ensure that this post has been read in full. As mentioned, the text in the accordion should be read by everyone, evern though specific users are addressed - the contents are relevant to more than just the person listed in the header.
To everyone who hasn't done anything mentioned above, I would like to thank you for remaining civil and partaking in being part of a working feedback system.
This thread will be unlocked at reset.
EDIT: Thread has been unlocked. Please keep in mind what was said. Thank you.
Skiddo
QUOTE originally posted by skiddo
Thank you for listening to our concerns, and I look forward to the redesign of melan Galarian Ponyta, it's been one of my favourite pokemon since its reveal and I'd love to see it in all its true melan beauty ;O;
QUOTE originally posted by skiddo
Also about the sprite edits, those look great too!!! I never knew how much difference that one pixel on Ponyta's waist could make!!! :O
As for Kantonian Ponyta though, I'll be kinda disappointed to see it change, since the albinos and melans are some of the most stunning sprites on the site that just really show how beautiful albinos and melans can be. But who knows, maybe revamped K-Ponyta will look even more gorgeous???
QUOTE originally posted by skiddo
Sobble
QUOTE originally posted by söbble
I also wish in my heart of hearts that art staff would just stop tying variant lines to their originals or whatever the situation is.
QUOTE
Forcing the sprites to look "different," from each other while still being consistent is bad, especially when the point of a variant is that it is at least somewhat similar to its counterpart. No one is begging you to change Kantonian Ponyta. No one cares if they're literally the same color(s). People like the sprites they have - Kanto is done. Unless it's a saturation update or the entire region is getting redone again, please, for the love of Arceus, let it alone. There's no reason to update them other than just because you feel like it? And to inconvenience users? And to cause upset? Like it's literally not worth it for something that doesn't even have to happen.
QUOTE originally posted by Sobble
Side note: of course stunky is going to get a green melan, because it's just color swapped, but honestly I'm gutted. If you have to make an exception for any line, why would it not literally be the animals who are black and white in real life? Even a black-and-grey melan, like Bewear, would be better than a green melan for Stunky.
Seeing a cream albino for stunky is super nice, though! Because domestic skunks actually do come in several shades of cream/cinnamon, like this cutie! Yet this just makes me long for a realistic melan one time even more, if I'm being honest.
PixelKitty
QUOTE originally posted by pixelkitty
Sad to hear about the Kanto Ponyta change. I was really hoping the lack of change was because the sprites were deemed "okay." Fingers crossed.
Otherwise, I'm glad to hear the art staff are taking our thoughts into consideration.
Also, is "art math" the hue shift tool? I'll admit I use it to make pleasing palettes on sprites as well.
QUOTE originally posted by pixelkitty
[snipped quote from sobble]
I really want to focus on this part specifically because it's a really good summary of my own thoughts about varient lines.
When Kanto/Alolan Slash were first updated for the totem, I was so confused to hear that they were both updated and that one couldn't be changed without changing the other because... reasons?
I disliked it even more when it came to Kanto/Alolan 'Pix, because Alolan 'Pix was fine and there was no reason to change the updated sprite (especially because it looked like the old sprite anyway) when lightening/changing the color of Kanto 'Pix.
Edit: Yeah, I'm also just generally not happy with the Kanto re-revamps... I don't see the point. Who's complaining? No one, really. Who complains when they're changed? A lot more people.
VyrusVoyd
QUOTE originally posted by VyrusVoyd
I understand the consistancy thing, but I think some melans can stand to be more melan, rather than a albino-yet-darker color. I don't really know how to say this better- but melan Galarian Ponyta, for example, just didn't feel melanistic to me at all. I also think it looks like its about to get sick but- that's me.
I think a rule can be broken once or twice, in favor of more pleasing melanistic pokemon sprites.
Also I'm on the "sad current melan ponyta is going away" train, too.
QUOTE originally posted by VyrusVoyd
I actually think that is a valid point. From my understanding, Kanto had been updated entirely before. Why do some of these need to get redone, again?
I'm going to be blund; but its redundant. Let Kanto sprites be. They're fine as is especially after that update.
Tbh I will be upset if Melan Mega Rapidash changes. Its so pretty now ;-;
nil
QUOTE originally posted by nil
I don't really have anything to add that hasn't been said, i'm just going to echo that i'm glad the art staff is taking stuff like this into consideration but i don't understand why kantonian ponyta has to have the melan changed as well. galar might just be a variant, but galarian ponyta is an entirely different pokemon with different colors, different typing, different style. i thought kanto was re-done ages ago so i'm not sure why it has to be re-done again if it was fine the first time.
Cinis
QUOTE originally posted by Cinis
Well, I just want to thank all the art staff for their hard work and the galar sprites so far are amazing ;w;
On that note... I rly have to chime in and say: please, please don't change the Kanto Ponyta line. The kantonian melan Ponyta was what made me join the site and wanting to hunt melans. I just... love this line so much. It was my first melan hunt ever and I'm so happy whenever I see those cute lil ponies. Tbh. I'm not that much of an artsy person and don't have that wast knowledge, but currently, I rly don't see any reason for changing Kanto Ponytas melan colours. It is perfect the way it is.
Nightmøn
QUOTE originally posted by Nightmøn
Thinking about Ponyta revamp give me flashback of albino haunter. I mean.
I litterally hunt one to name it "Casper" and then it got revamped into this??
And I didn't have the occasion of dressing my albino haunter to save his past palette before the change.
Please staff. Let Kanto(And Johto) be.
Edit: Oh and also, I count, eight pixels change color on G. Ponyta sprite
I litterally hunt one to name it "Casper" and then it got revamped into this??
And I didn't have the occasion of dressing my albino haunter to save his past palette before the change.
Please staff. Let Kanto(And Johto) be.
Edit: QUOTE originally posted by Nightmøn
Wanted to point out that snowman have (almost) the same dirty white than G. ponyta
But on the snowmanline, it surprisely work? Surely because dirty snow exist xD I personally love the yellowish crystal. But I agree with spoody, zen mode have too "square" eyes
Edit: After some comparaison with the others sprites, this is only an impression and there is nothing that the art team can do more. So it's totaly fine!
But on the snowmanline, it surprisely work? Surely because dirty snow exist xD I personally love the yellowish crystal. But I agree with spoody, zen mode have too "square" eyes
Edit: After some comparaison with the others sprites, this is only an impression and there is nothing that the art team can do more. So it's totaly fine!SpoodleBug
QUOTE originally posted by SpoodleBug
aaaaa thanks guys, can't believe I got a discovery :D makes all those dcp worth it lol
OK SO MY THOUGHTS:
I super duper like the sprites on these guys, they're really well made! I don't even like this pokemon too much as a whole (it's not even in my copy of the game lol version exclusives) but the sprites are super cute and good. I mentioned before that I like how chunky things look, and these guys are no exception. The hands especially, good lord those look tough so props to the artist who did them!!
QUOTE originally posted by SpoodleBug
Re the melans, whilst I expected some green, the red is a surprise ;o; It is very contrasty with the horns on darumaka, which doesn't seem to be the case with the other forms. it does make a bit more sense in darmanitan though. Would love to hear the thinking behind that. Zen mode is just.. mwah, excellent. My one gripe with that is that the eye looks.. weirdly square? due to the wau tje colours are on the outline? It works fine on the lighter colours but that just doesnt sit right with me for some reason. The grey is also a bit greenish, which normally I'd dislike, but it gives me vibes of that cruddy mushed up snow you get at the side of a road the day or two after it first comes down, so it works <3
Overall super pleased with this bab, gunna try for another!
Re the melans, whilst I expected some green, the red is a surprise ;o; It is very contrasty with the horns on darumaka, which doesn't seem to be the case with the other forms.
Zen mode is just.. mwah, excellent. My one gripe with that is that the eye looks.. weirdly square? due to the wau tje colours are on the outline? It works fine on the lighter colours but that just doesnt sit right with me for some reason.
cïnderace
QUOTE originally posted by cïnderace
kinda late but i really don't understand the need to revamp previously "fixed" melans when they get a variant
like, what is there to fix? why are you changing the old melan based on the new one rather than the opposite? if they need to be "consistent" then just...make galar ponyta consistent with kanto ponyta. it's arguably one of the nicest melans onsite and there's no reason to change it just because of galar ponyta
like, i just don't get it. if galar ponyta didn't exist, would you still be changing kanto ponyta, or would you leave it alone?
Avatar: Novie