Disallowing "Grab Bags"

A. That's assuming absolutely all grab bags are rigged, and I don't think there's any grab bag here where one of the prizes is absolutely nothing, as would be similar to a slot machine. That's also not the /only/ reason for/function of grab bags? One of the reasons I like grab bags is because I'm not looking for anything in particular, so I don't mind spending a bit more for the possibility of something good or something worth a little less than what I paid for. [Shrug Emoji] (Which is the risks that I'm able to agree to and accept like I talked about earlier? And, yes, could be considered gambling?) B. You still have to dedicate time and effort into getting and collecting them, they aren't just handed out thousands at a time to everyone. That's why people pay for box hunts and boxes in the first place, because some people don't want to spend that time so they spend money. To gamble. And just because there are multiple ways of getting it, by either spending time or money, does that make it not gambling somehow? Are you still not spending either time or money on something that gives you a randomized reward, something that you can lose money on, in the hopes of getting a higher reward and getting your money back/more? And does the fact that you can sell it to someone else (who is spending their currency for the chance to get more currency but might lose it because gambling) suddenly make that not gambling? C. How are 'Lucky Seals' any better than the 'higher tier' grab bags that are guaranteed to have something good? Why wouldnt you spend that money just getting the thing in the first place? Oh, right. Because there's a chance you might get something really good. Something worth more than the combined price of the box and charm. Or you might not and lose money, because it is a gamble. D. How could coded RNG be impossible to rig to scam people? Just because it gives the same chances to everyone doesn't mean it's fair in terms of what the percentages are set to. Also, this again assumes that absolutely every grab bag doesn't use RNG and every single one is a scam. Now, if you had said that since so many people have already opened boxes for so long that we know that the percentages aren't totally rigged against us for this particular coding in this particular instance, that would be a point I would agree, because I said that already. :P And, mind you, I agree with most of you that it would be for the best to not allow grab bags. I'm just saying that if we're using the reason of 'gambling is not allowed because its evil/bad/not safe for children!!!!' we've gotta look at what we're actually saying and make good reasons for why we're sayin it. :P (Well. No matter what we're saying we should have good reasons. But, you know.)

No support. First, if you're main problem is that you can't ensure fair trading (Whether its cost vs reward or making sure the seller is telling the truth/being fair) why not make a set of guidelines/rules that grab bags have to follow, rather than just straight out banning them? This is an easily workable situation if you just take the time to work out a system that keep things fair (or at least clearly report-able if it isn't fair) For instance, if you imposed these two rules: 1: the seller MUST Guarantee a certain type of reward. And they MUST clearly state what that type of reward is. (IE: Every bag has at least a form changer, or will always have a shiny pokemon inside, and the selelr has to clearly state this in their thread.) 2: The seller must show an accurate list of what can be found in grab bags. in terms of pokemon, this would include showing exactly which species of shinies (or whatever it would be) you're giving out. With just these two rules you've solved any problems of scam or not really knowing if getting the grab bag is worth your money. Honestly, I've been through some of the grab bag threads, and several of them have been very clear about what level of gift you'll get. And those are great because I can pretty accurately decide if I want to spend my money on it or not. Where as if I find a thread that is more ambiguous or is promising less useful items, then I can make my own conscious decision not to buy from there. It's always been very clear which ones are worth buying and which aren't so a little economic sense can bring you to easily avoid any scams. I'm not saying it's ok these scams exist though, Something definitely does need to be done about it. I just feel that rather than banning a fun trading mechanism that a large quantity of the player base has picked up and enjoyed, we could work out a set of rules to make it fair or at least police-able. Lastly, I feel your gambling comment does hold some weight to it, even if I feel your other points are misjudged. I find it hard to connect grab bags to gambling since its something you'd usually see at some county fair where everyone knows your going to get the same mass produced candy and plastic toy. But when I take a moment to think about it in terms of PFQ, it could be seen as gambling. But at the same time it makes me think of raffles, where you can join but not necessarily get anything worthwhile out of it. Of course in that case there's the fact that it's against the rules to have to pay to get in raffles. But then you have the rule where you can require donations if it's a prize-pool-everyone-wins scenario. If we can replicate that scenario where a grab bag always feels like a win and you've gotten your money's worth, then I say go for it. (Heck, even in the prize-pool-everyone-wins scenario you could put in a rare shiny and all you get out of it is a few medium gems. That's not an even trade, and you don't know what you're you're going to get until you get it, but it's still allowed under the gambling rules.)

the thing about raffles: they're free to enter and if they do have an entry fee, it is added to the prize pool, and has a consolation prize worth at least the value of the entry fee: that is, the host cannot profit from raffles, therefore it's not gambling (as i understand from what I've read of my own countries rules, and the contest forum rules. again, i cannot speak for British laws and regulations)

Exactly, there are rules that keep raffles/prize pools fair. Why can't there be rules for keeping grab bags fair?

because there's be no way to enforce them, no way to prove if it's a scam or not. because how would you know if every prize has been given out or not? the only person who would be able to tell if it was a scam, is the scammer themselves if you don't get a top prize, you assume someone else got it

How about a rule could be you have to publicly post what people got, similar to a raffle? Most raffles I've been a part of clearly publically list everyone who won and who got what, often with proof of randomization. Why can't grab bags do the same?

What are tyou talking about? It's easily enforceable. All you have to do is make it very clear what you're getting in the bag. And if you don't get what you're promised, then it's a scam. Trade histories have been a thing for a very long time, so it's very easy to tell if someone gave something other than what the promised. Take my two example rules. You have to guarantee something, and list what all the options are. This means you know for absolute certain of the base level of worth of the grab bag. You can't put anything in the bags you didn't list. You can't offer anything you don't have. If you were bagging shinies, you'd have to list what species. If you were bagging summons, you'd have to list which summons might be in there. Now the buyer knows if the price is worth what's in the bag. And if you know it isn't worth the price, but you still buy it, then that's no one's fault but your own. Nothing is going to change that without directly regulating prices and trades. Also, you could have the same argument about raffles, how do you know if all the prizes were properly given out? Only the person running it would know that.Why can I assume someone can get the better prize in a raffle and not in a grab bag? Is there some unknown rule saying if I didn't get the best in a grab bag, obviously no one who gets a grab bag can get it?

Support. I, personally, have never bought grab-bags. They tend to go to 100gp, to 350gp. But you can get shinies literally worth 50gp (Togedemaru, Pichu etc.) in a 350gp worth bag. It just seems like an easy way to get currency by just tricking people and saying "You'll get rare items/Pokémon out of this!" when all you might really get is a Water Stone. Though not all grab-bag sellers do this, you never know if the person even HAS the items they claim they do.

list of prizes: 1 shiny moltres 50 shiny magikarp (just examples bare with me) the owner hands out a magikarp to all the buyers and puts the moltres in a hidden field everyone who got a karp assumes someone else got the moltres. ta-da, scam. and a very hard one to pick up on if there had to be a list of what everyone got.. then it would be different. but again, not everyone would look at the lists on every single grab bag, and scamming people would still be fairly easy by "disappearing" the top prizes and putting a random username on the list saying they got the prize. who would bother to check when there's 40+ people on the list? it's just too easily abusable that's not even getting started on items...

If the list comprised of 1 shiny legendary and 50 shiny magikarp, any price over 100 gp would turn most buyers off. If it's clear that the most likely worth is some low level shiny, why would people pay a lot for a grab bag? The same goes with items. You can't list the possible items like this anymroe: form changers, plates, summons items, megastones. It would have to be like this: There Will ALWAYS be a form changer in you bag! ( all other things are up to chance) List of grab bag items: Sun jewel Rain jewel Snow jewel fan sparkplug frost sparkplug mow sparkplug bindi steel statue Gracidea seed Fujins lamp Mewtwonite Y sceptilite zap plate mind plate splash plate draco plate. By combining these two pieces of knowledge, you know that the only thing you're guaranteed to get is a common form changer. Now how is someone going to scam you? No one is going to pay a really high price if they can't promise they'll get better than some normal item. In this scenario, the grab bag becomes less of a gamble, but instead selling you a certain type of item with a chance for a free item on the side.