Disallowing "Grab Bags"

For those who are unaware, Grab Bags are something of a recent trend in the Trades forum. Most operate in a way similar to the following:

• The content of a "Grab Bag" is often some kind of shiny, legendary, exclusive, or item, where the contents drastically vary in value.
• There are certain 'tiers', where the rarer 'tiers' give 'better' prizes (supposedly).
• The contents of a Grab Bag is subject to the seller's discretion, even if they claim that they are using a random number generator.
• Those who sell Grab Bags are not obligated to give out any rare Pokemon that they claim they do-- they often have "prize pools", but no one can check exactly what they give out to everyone to make sure they own up to it.

(I'm not going to link threads publicly to give examples, but anyone who's still curious can PM me.) I don't think I'm alone when I voice my skepticism of this form of trading (proof: 1, 2). Overall, PFQ tends to enforce a stricter form of trading where you get what you paid for, and nothing less. By participating in a Grab Bag, a user has great potential to find their money wasted, and there is a large risk of scams. While I'm sure many Grab Bag sellers are sincere in their Grab Bags, it only takes one bad seller to screw someone over. Now, I understand that there are drawbacks to disallowing this: some people genuinely enjoy it, it seems, judging by the popularity of those threads. However, I can't help but feel that it also encourages a gambling-like behavior amongst those who buy them. Some people offer it as a genuine service without intent to scam, and that's worth something as well. However, I believe the harm that may result from it outweighs these benefits.

support speaking as an adult: something that seems to be overlooked is that this is a form of gambling, which is against site rules, considering it is child friendly. gambling [gam-bling] noun 1. the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes. 2. the act or practice of risking the loss of something important by taking a chance or acting recklessly i think the grab bags fall under both these definitions.

I support this i never bought grab bags but they just still seem a bit like gambling plus you never know if you are going to actually get what is in those grab bags.

I like the ideas of grab bags, when they are done right, however, after the first person who initially started this "grab bag trend" no one has done it in a way that would make it worth keeping. So I would have to say, I support the Disallowing of grab bags. If grab bags were to be regulated instead of Disallowed, then I would recommend having the person post their proof of random draw, and make all prizes that could possibly be won stated clearly. Right now, I consider it a scam, because all of the threads aren't clear about what each individual grab bag could offer, it's all very vague. The more vague a thread is, and more defensive someone is when people want to know what other people got, is a clear indication of a scam. They don't want people to know the true odds of getting a good item (if there actually is one). This is a practice that should not be allowed. The gambling thought though, I don't particularly mind as much. I mean Gamefreak/Nintendo in the older Pokemon games actually had casinos with slot machines, roulette, and all those other sorts of games like that, so the gambling aspect isn't so bad, especially when real money isn't taken into account, it's just virtual currency. (If real money is being used however, it may cause problems.)

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm. I'm torn I suppose? I would vote for more of a regulation/requirements for them? As in, grab bag providers must provide exactly what their bags can contain, proof of randomization, and maaybe the exact chances of getting what thing. Which might be more work than it's worth, and it'd certainly be easier to just banish them. Just to be clear I guess, the issue is not with the concept of grab bags themselves per se, but the issue is with those who are genuinely being scumbags when it comes to them, correct? Since there's no way right now to tell if they're being truthful or not. I'm mostly still of the opinion people have their own agency and grab bags themselves aren't harmful. Both the seller and the buyer agree to the situation. If you're trying to get exactly your money back or better from grab bags, I don't think you're quite getting the point of them. If a player wants to enguage in the risk of getting less than what they pay for, they can make that choice themselves. If a player agrees to a grab bag they don't know the contents of, they've accepted the risk of getting, well, anything! Including something bad. If a player thinks that is a scam, they can /not/ get that. If a player agrees to a grab bag with the possible prizes listed out, they agree to get any of those prizes for what they pay for, even the lowest tier ones. I really feel like drawing comparisons to PFQ's own "grab bags", though I know people'd be up in arms about it. Yes, I know it's not the same since we have confirmation people can get good stuff. But it is still something that every PFQ user can buy with actual real life money for randomized rewards with no guarantees. You can spend 4 real life buckaroos (or a good amount of in-game currency) on 21 boxes and get nothing but berries and crap. But it's a risk, and the user paying for and opening those boxes are doing so accepting that risk. You can easily lose money because of bad luck and get nothing in return. That's. What risk is. I view grab bags in the same manner. The only difference is, unlike Boxes, grab bags are currently being managed by the creators of those grab bags, common users, and far, far less information on what could be inside. Since right now we have no requirement for users to show what could possibly be in their bag, it could be easy to get scammed. But that only comes in at the fault of the grab bag seller themselves, and unfortunately it's a hard thing to prove at such a small scale. So, I guess, final thoughts? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'd be sad to see them go, but unless we can figure out a way to enforce them it might be for the best. And at this small scale, I'm not sure it would be worth the trouble. (Also, while we're in the middle of the video game 'loot box' hullabaloo, it's almost silly to see PFQ going through it's own little era of randomized rewards) And re: "Gambling" How would you say Boxes don't fall under the same definition? Especially when Boxes are the ones that can be bought directly from the site for real-life currency if one chooses. Does the confirmation of high rewards (summons/etc) make it stop being gambling?

grab bags: put in a certain amount of currency in hope you get something more valuable. essentially it works the same as a slot machine, only with someone controlling the prizes, where the top prize may not even be possible to win. so slot machines rigged to scam you. boxes: something you can find without the need to spend currency, buying them is an optional way to get them. additionally, you don't have to open them. you can sell them for a profit, or use a lucky seal to ensure you get a summon. they're also coded, RNG, not something that could be rigged to scam you.

How do you suggest proof of randomization? A screenshot of a randomizer won't work: simply refresh the randomizer and you get a new number if you don't like the result they got, or just use inspect element to change the number. The only way I can support grab bags is if there were a built in PFQ random number generator. Perhaps something like [random 1,10] could generate a random number 1-10. To prevent people editing and getting new numbers, this would have to generate a random number at the time of posting, and then have the random numbers in that post always stay the same, so that they couldn't change it. Also, While it is true that GF/Ninetendo originally had gambling in their games, they faced several lawsuits and social pressures to get rid of it, and have removed gambling entirely from their modern games. For example, in ORAS, the Mauville Game Corner from the orignal RSE games was entirely removed, because they didn't want gambling to be in the games. EDIT: I totally forgot to say that there should absolutely be a requirement for people to state exactly what could be in their grab bags. I could easily go sell "grab bags" for 100 GP and send each person a random pokemon from my "TBR" fields: worthless to me, and probably to them.

I'm not exactly sure what the British laws state, but gambling for minors here is illegal, as in you can get arrested and potentially go to jail for promoting that sort of behavior to children that is, pay (pfq currency can be bought with real money, so it does count) with the hopes/very slim chance of getting something better.

I support this as well. Take overwatch for instance, they had to make it where a user got a guaranteed sum of gold every few loot boxes because china was gonna ban them for it being under the gambling law which is illegal. If you keep the bags at least make it where one thing is FOR SURE worth buying.

I fully support this. I misread the details of a grab bag thread (which was very vague) and took the items listed to be potential prizes. Welp, I traded a shiny and got a snow jewel. -_- Lesson learned.