Implementing A 'Block' Feature
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re: lag
Blocking won't have as much of an impact on the site as you think, D33R, specifically because we are likely not going to add the most lag-inducing aspects such as Shelter filtering (re: making sure you don't encounter eggs bred by a blocked user). Asking Sally to check all 40 eggs for their OTs every time you refresh would just be too much especially given that the Shelter is an already resource-intensive feature. This has pretty much been deemed too lag-inducing for not enough benefit to be practical. There's already less than a 1% chance you'll run into an egg hatched by someone you've blocked simply due to the sheer number of eggs in the Shelter. That's why "but the lag" is largely a non-point -- it's simply unlikely that this or other major lag-causers would be added to the block feature due to this exact concern. Those features would need to provide a benefit that is applicable to enough people and/or in enough instances to be worth it vs the server system's resources used or otherwise occupied by those processes.
So, please do not use lag as a reason to not support this. Niet can make things work and will do whatever is possible to minimize the impact it has on the site in terms of lag. Don't worry about the implementation of it, and just stick to the pros and cons of the block feature itself and the features that you would like to see accompanying it.
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QUOTE originally posted by mikestarprince
i cannot agree with the argument of "just use css". why should you have to mod a game in order to enjoy it?
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QUOTE originally posted by Cyndalavosion
Whit's post
QUOTE originally posted by Whit
No support.
Listen: I'm a minority. I'm Jewish, Trans and disabled. I've also been abused and cyberbullied. Blocking is NOT an answer to this problem. Blocking does nothing against racism, homophobia, transphobia and ableism. Blocking is just plugging your ears and going-- 'lalala, i'm not listening.'
Use your words, sort things out like an adult, or use the report button. Blocking WILL be used and abused for petty reasons if it's implemented, and people WILL end up getting hurt over it. People will use blocks just because they're offended, not because they're genuinely hurt like the intended use is for.
If it's not a reportable offense, it's not really even an offense. Just get a chrome extention to filter out 'ALM' if you're that sensitive to other opinions, plenty of them exist.
Whit/Believe's posts
QUOTE originally posted by Whit
QUOTE originally posted by BELIEVE
Hopefully my reply doesnt sound like I'm simply trying to be argumentative , as that's not my intention.
I might just be nitpicky , but saying to 'sort things out like an adult' on a site intended for children doesnt seem like the best idea. Blocking is quite literally so that you don't have to see , listen to , or overall interact with the person being blocked. If a person is hurt that they've been blocked , I feel the question would be how they know they've been blocked , as I dont believe telling them is really the best solution? ["Hey you've been blocked by 'user' !"would just stir up issues imo]
To say that if it's not reportable , it's not an offense is really harsh imo. Again , as a site intended for children , I dont think minors should have to go out of their way just to feel comfortable or safe on a website that should already provide this , much less simply deal with it.
QUOTE originally posted by whiimsicøtt
QUOTE originally posted by mikestarprince
i cannot agree with the argument of "just use css". why should you have to mod a game in order to enjoy it?
QUOTE originally posted by CottonEevee
I would just like to say, since I've seen a lot of it-
Saying that some people should "grow up and be an adult" is not right. You can't force someone to hunch their shoulders back and handle the situation themselves. It is a skil that children should learneventually, but seeing as this is a child-friendly site, children play on here, and some may have difficulty doing that, even with a parent around. And not just kids, but ids of all ages.
I won't disagree with the fact that blocking people for petty things could (and probably will)create hurt feelings and exclusion. It's a pretty obvious outcome.
The thing is, some people may just feel uncomfortable with certain people or not want to interact with them due to a conflict in the past. A likely counter:
"Just ignore them, then!"
What if THEY contact YOU?
"Again, ignore them! If it becomes reportable, just report them."
It's not easy just to"ignore them". Some people(like me) find it irksome to get PMs or random trades from someone you don't want to see, or sending/recieving interactions to/from someone you don't want to click or get clicked by. I agree that blocking them would still create hurt feelings, so I'm gonna see if someone else could think of a solution/end to my post.
QUOTE originally posted by Whit
QUOTE originally posted by whiimsicøtt
QUOTE originally posted by mikestarprince
i cannot agree with the argument of "just use css". why should you have to mod a game in order to enjoy it?
QUOTE originally posted by Whit
I'll be open and honest about this: There is a now-inactive user on Pokefarm that harassed me to a near s*cide attempt when I was only 14. I came across their profile a year ago, and while it did trigger bad memories, I ultimately just clicked the 'next' button. If I can do it-- as a person with anxiety, autism, ptsd, and more, I believe the general public will be able to do it. I don't like people using their past experiences as a excuse to open a gateway to mistreating other people. This may be narrow minded of me, but... it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it.
Again, I feel less safe with a block feature because exclusion is more painful than direct harassment. With the proper coping skills, direct harassment is more easy to handle. You can laugh at all the effort they're taking to hurt you, you can rise above it and feel superior. You can't escape that way with a click of a button to be silenced. And that's what this is, silencing people: This may be a UK based site but I'm rather sure they still have the concept of free speech there.
look. your experience isn't invalidated, but you had to learn to sort things out the hard way.
I'm 14 years old and mature enough to take care of my problems, but what about all those 8, 9, 10-year-olds playing this game ? do you want them to have to learn to act like an adult when they are only 8 ? my little brother is 9 and if he had to do this he wouldn't get over it. he is very very sensitive. I dont want other kids his age to suffer through it. it is not easy to ignore people, specially when they send negative messages to you and you can't do anything but ""ignore them"".
you have gone through a lot and /now/, that you are 21, you can just click next, but others won't because they are more sensitive, more scared, or for any reason, and they are also valid.
if you scroll up and check people's profiles, you'll see some of this people are 9-10 year olds. some are even arguing against you. so try thinking how would you feel if when you were younger you had the option to block that person harassing you.
like also said before, i disagree with having to use a css to not see others, you have to change the game yourself to be able to play in peace.
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QUOTE originally posted by Colorful
I may imput more on this later, but please try not to double post ^^
QUOTE originally posted by matecocido
look. your experience isn't invalidated, but you had to learn to sort things out the hard way.
I'm 14 years old and mature enough to take care of my problems, but what about all those 8, 9, 10-year-olds playing this game ? do you want them to have to learn to act like an adult when they are only 8 ? my little brother is 9 and if he had to do this he wouldn't get over it. he is very very sensitive. I dont want other kids his age to suffer through it. it is not easy to ignore people, specially when they send negative messages to you and you can't do anything but ""ignore them"".
you have gone through a lot and /now/, that you are 21, you can just click next, but others won't because they are more sensitive, more scared, or for any reason, and they are also valid.
if you scroll up and check people's profiles, you'll see some of this people are 9-10 year olds. some are even arguing against you. so try thinking how would you feel if when you were younger you had the option to block that person harassing you.
like also said before, i disagree with having to use a css to not see others, you have to change the game yourself to be able to play in peace.
QUOTE originally posted by Whit
Please do not invalidate my experience. In my experience with exclusion and harassment, both were painful, but exclusion was exponentially more painful than harassment.
I'll be open and honest about this: There is a now-inactive user on Pokefarm that harassed me to a near s*cide attempt when I was only 14. I came across their profile a year ago, and while it did trigger bad memories, I ultimately just clicked the 'next' button. If I can do it-- as a person with anxiety, autism, ptsd, and more, I believe the general public will be able to do it. I don't like people using their past experiences as a excuse to open a gateway to mistreating other people. This may be narrow minded of me, but... it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it.
Again, I feel less safe with a block feature because exclusion is more painful than direct harassment. With the proper coping skills, direct harassment is more easy to handle. You can laugh at all the effort they're taking to hurt you, you can rise above it and feel superior. You can't escape that way with a click of a button to be silenced. And that's what this is, silencing people: This may be a UK based site but I'm rather sure they still have the concept of free speech there...
QUOTE originally posted by Whit
...If it's genuine abuse or bullying, staff can and will take care of it. However, if we allow blocking for any reason- it will be used for reasons such as petty disagreements, 'bad vibes' and 'they make me uncomfortable' with no concrete wrongdoing, like how the feature is socially abused on other sites with block features.
This has disastrous implications in a game that requires everyone to be able to interact with everyone for a fair chance.
If one person blocks another, it's no big deal, but it can snowball. Friend groups and cliques exist on every site, and before you know it you'll have one user blocked by a signifigant amount of active players, thus completely harming their playability.
QUOTE originally posted by Whit
Please take a moment to think of how you'd react at 8, 9 or 10 being excluded and blocked for little to no reason.
interacting meaning speaking with/communicating with, not the literal clicking ^^
with.
Personally, I don't want to interact with younger children on this website. It feels inappropriate, as I'm an adult. (That doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong for adults to interact with children, just how I personally feel. Comfort wise ^^').
(Though to be honest I wouldn't want kids online at the ages of 8, 9, or 10. I know I would have handled it awfully. But, that's not my decision and not really the point right now, just something I wanted to point out since it kind of explains why my points / arguments here are a bit off/feel like I don't fully believe them? ig.)
Side note; I don't respond in here a lot because generally, I feel that I've said really all I have to say, and that my opinions are expressed by others who do reply in here frequently. I've stepped in to discuss a bit now since I feel some stuff is being overlooked, and I can help explain it a bit ^^
★ Zachary ★ They/He ★ 22 ★
Quiet nature collector.I will just step in for a short time frame, because I have been watching this thread go hell. In fact, the state of this topic has gotten out of hand and derailed to the point it’s turned into a fight and caused numerous people to attack and lash out at one another behind messages and offsite messaging systems.
However, let's talk about the real reason we are all are approaching this thread. One needs to look upon the pros and cons of each version of these so-called blocking methods, shall we? We need the best for the human race to be able to fully function, and fulfill the meaning of the site which is clicking. Nonetheless, we need to protect the players as well due to this world is corrupted, and no-one knows how to handle anything anymore. Let’s look through each person’s eyes even for a moment before jumping in like a wild pack of dogs that are just barking back and forth and getting nowhere. The best way to solve this is to just add the feature at this point.
We have two features that have been stated on the front post as many have read. Unless people didn’t read it and that that’s your dam fault for not reading that fully before posting.
I will be blunt; all you have to say is which version you like best. Then back it up, same goes with if you hate the idea. If you dislike someone’s opinion on what version it is so be it, but try to work it out so everyone can be happy. Honestly, you can’t make everyone happy, it’s impossible in nature and its impossible for a site. We all can just try and come together and find a way to help the site move forward a bit without fighting or going after people offsite which is very harmful and not even humane.
Also, I’m going to vote while I am online, since D33R changed my opinion slightly. Even if I personal give zero cares what happens to the site because I do not play it. I stand to vote on the version that allows clicking and a way to not see the players you block. This is a win ~ win situation where we can successfully give the players what they are asking for “a block feature” that doesn’t tamper with the clicking.
- Sukio
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QUOTE originally posted by Whit
I change the game for ease of access, not for peace- it's just coincindence the same script I use to stack the click buttons also hides profiles.
Please take a moment to think of how you'd react at 8, 9 or 10 being excluded and blocked for little to no reason.
This comes down to who gets hurt more, and i think the blockee gets hurt more than the blocker because the blockee doesn't have a choice in how their gameplay is affected, or how their free speech is affected. Blocking basically gives anyone the power to be a mini-mod.
Again, I've offered a suggestion of compromise: Make blocks have an expiration, could be a day, could be a week. Gives people time to cool down. Harassers will likely give up and forget by that tiime.
I'm not perfect. I'm still sensitive. I'm still scared myself. You don't know all the traumas I've been through and I'm not obligated or obliged to share them all. But part of why I feel safe on Pokefarm is because no one can censor me over 'dislike' or 'bad vibes.' As long as I follow the rules I'm safe. And that's something I can agree with. No one gets to make up their own rules to shut me down.
Thank you Cele for clarifying the lag talking point! I think it'd be reasonable for us who doesn't have knowledge or expertise in the coding area of this site to speak on the block function itself without taking coding/lag into consideration. Not because it isn't important, but because points to be made for coding and lag should be made only by the experts in the subject as to not cause confusion/misinformation. We could speak in hypotheticals all day, but it's superfluous when there are people who do know and might be available to give objective answers to such questions.
Now, time to discuss :)
In response to RèÏSÉñ:
Maybe they can, maybe they cannot. The case of cannot is just as valid as the case of can, or?
Me and others have brought up in previous posts a system for forum blocking which makes it so that threads on things that will affect every site user cannot be affected by forum block. TLDR; Some sections of the forum will not be affected by a block in the name of keeping discussions open for everyone. In these places there has been suggested things like hiding the post of a person you've blocked so you can decide on interacting or opting out of the discussion. For personal threads that do not affect more than the blocker and the blocked (Think journals, RPs, Art Shops etc.) you would not be able to post.
This is a sentiment I find absurd. Yes, especially online you will find things that are offensive/triggering, but why would you not teach kids to remove that source of discomfort? Why would you advicate for children repeatedly exposing themselves to what they do not like in an effort to "grow thicker skin" when you can teach them ways to keep themselves safe by either not being in online spaces that expose them repeatedly to such things, or give them the tools for filtering? There is something to be said for first exposure being unavoidable, but it is another thing to allow repeat exposure and normalization. We should not put forth the sentiment to children that the horrible things done on the internet under the guise of anonymity is acceptable and inevitable. Yes the internet is horrible, but you don't have to contribute to that. It might be a thankless, endless job to provide safety to minors, but it should not be discarded as useless.
And yes you can "block" someone irl. You can refuse to be in the same space as them, you can refuse to engage with them, you can ignore them. If someone says something terrible to you, you as an autonomous person with free will can and should remove yourself from that situation irl or online, and a blocking function allows for stricter enforcement of personal boundaries in instances where involving laws is not an option for whatever reason.
I genuinely don't think you said this in bad faith, but the implication of this wording is that you'd be fine with racism until the point you've decided it's "extremely prevalent" however much you personally and subjectively ("I don't see it.") decide what that is. Should you not have a zero tolerance policy on any and all racism?
... What? I should just move on from hidden, violent rhetoric that can and will hurt others? Why?
I agree, no one should be forced to look at things they do not want to see. Implementing blocking as a filtering feature where I can hide aspects that I do not wish to look at from specific users will help me not having to repeatedly expose myself to it.
If your point here is that I should be able to just not read things naturally, that would mean I need to personally make a conscious effort to look away from visual elements that pop up over and over and maybe even at random times if there is someone specific I do not wish to look at. Constant vigilance in keeping your vision off of such things will become tiring if all you want is to avoid is certain cards while clicking online users, for example, and hiding it will make the game more accessible to me again. If my vision is naturally pulled towards giant bold letters on my screen, is it fully my fault then if I am exposed to something unpleasant, and do I deserve the discomfort?
Here I will disagree outright for what might be concidered "controversial" reasons. You are not owed my time, as I am not owed yours. If I find we were to fundamentally disagree in a manner that does not break site rules, but would make any possible interactions unpleasant in nature of our disagreement, I would argue for that I shouldn't have to spend my limited time on this earth interacting with you. If you wish to dispute this, I have mentioned an additional feature of being able to contest blocks in my first post in this thread.
In response to Whit:
Again, @RèÏSÉñ and @Whit neither of you argue against implementing blocking strictly as a filtering feature (an argument I've made a little earlier in this thread), but still shut down the suggestion in its entirety on the base of there being either chrome extensions or saying that someone should just ignore it.
Would you two also still be against blocking if it was only to filter out/hide things like about mes/cards/forum icons or other things that you two use arguments like "get a chrome extension" or "ignore"?
Having a site-based version that does what the chrome extension does, or simply hides things so I don't have to see it every single time I come across someone randomly, but does not affect gameplay otherwise. It is great that you have found ways to filter this out, or shoulder your way through without it being too much of a personal detriment, but implementing it like this would make it fully accessible to browsers that are not chrome/devices that can't use such extensions to begin with, and people who do not experience life as you do can have a better experience on-site and be incentivised to be more active!
For CSS I am once again asking if there is one easily available and useable that allows a degree of flexibility in exactly what you can remove, and even then if you advocate for the use of CSS and/or browser extensions, could you not argue for a blocking function that works essentially the same as those would? That'd be easier to use and more accessible if Niet implements it well (Which he probably would).
(Apologies if my post brings up points previously expressed by others. I've been at writing it for a while, and the activity has been going faster than I could perfectly edit around (10 new posts since I started). For that reason I would like to apologize for spelling mistakes too (English isn't my first language), I'll try and go back and edit out the most egregious ones, but I want this post posted at some point :9)
QUOTE originally posted by RèÏSÉñ
[...] Who knows, maybe two people with opposing views can still find some common ground and cooperate in a game about clicking pokemon. [...]
QUOTE originally posted by RèÏSÉñ
[...] It also creates scenarios where someone makes a topic that everyone can agree with like 'how niet can improve the site!', but now the people you blocked can't post there because they offended you somehow. So not only can they not read your suggestion, but they cannot suggest something of their own as well. Now if they want to publicly discuss neutral topics (and many of the topics I see on the forums are) they have to avoid the threads created by people who blocked them and make their own. [...]
QUOTE originally posted by RèÏSÉñ
[...] Learning to 'sort things out' is an adult skill, and one that kids should learn. You can only keep someone from seeing something offensive or triggering for so long. Plus, outside of the cyberworld (twitter/tumblr/reddit) people are capable of saying terrible things and there is no block feature. Someone says something that offends you, then you speak up or move on. Maybe it's just me but I think that is the kind of attitude people need these days, and the internet isn't a bad place to learn it. [...]
QUOTE originally posted by RèÏSÉñ
[...] If racism was extremely prevalent here, I would probably wholeheartedly support this feature, but as I said before I don't see it. I tried to look for it too, but after 50+ profiles I didn't see much of anything. [...]
QUOTE originally posted by RèÏSÉñ
[...] If it is a dogwhistle then... ignore it.[...]
QUOTE originally posted by RèÏSÉñ
[...] No one is forcing you to read everyones profile, trainer card, or forum posts nor should they. [...]
QUOTE originally posted by RèÏSÉñ
[...] For that matter, I don't think anyone should be able to force you into a situation where you cannot interact with them without knowing why [...]
I'm not going to repeat points @whiimsicott made that I agree with. That'd just be a waste of time and bog down this already ridiculously large post.
However, I too want to state that while I do not wish to invalidate your experiences, they are not universal and how you deal with and handle issues will not be feasible for everyone. In a discussion such as this, one cannot draw purely on one person's personal beliefs and experiences, though they are very valuable as proof of one viewpoint and needs to be met when implementing something for everyone.
This is a misuse of the concept of free speech. Free speech does not mean everyone has to platform or listen to you, or even that you are owed their time of day. Freedom of speech functions solely in protecting you from being legally persecuted for what you say. Aka staff cannot censor you. Everyone else doesn't have to listen at all, harsh as that may be. That's how freedom of speech works.
This will require personal management to upkeep. If blocks are not permanent people will -instead of letting them expire- ensure they renew them. That is more effort on the blocker's part, and defeats the purpose of the block being non-permanent in the first place. It's and interesting concept, but I think something like contesting blocks (as I've mentioned earlier) or perhaps other solutions would work better.
Subjectivity aside, why is the harm that can follow from exposure less relevant than the harm from having boundaries enforced upon you? How do you judge which harm is more valid objectively?
How is a stable (or stagnation as you refer to it as. I disagree with this sentiment, which is why I've renamed it stability. Feel free to disagree.) space to exist in online bad? Enforcing your own boundaries and giving your time and energy only to those who will respect that is a very valuable social skill. Concidering the sheer amount of people you are exposed to online, I wouldn't say it's unreasonable to have a stable homebase of friends to return to, nor to want to shield that stability by not inviting every single person you meet into said group.
You cannot befriend everyone, it is physically impossible to have deep interpersonal connections with everyone. If someone blocks you that you've never interacted with before, that is a valid concern and maybe we should discuss under which circumstances blocking should be reportable instead of saying it should not exist at all, but I will stand by my point that one is allowed to reserve themselves from any social interaction for whatever reason they may have to set such boundaries.
I can say that we SHOULD allow easy ways out, because not everything should be as tough as possible, and people does not need to be constantly pushed, and how would my point be less valid than yours, objectively speaking?
I think we have two very different views on "censoring". You can still speak freely even if someone doesn't want to listen, and that would not be censoring you. If they supressed you, if they shut down your speech
QUOTE originally posted by Whit
[...] You can't escape that way with a click of a button to be silenced. And that's what this is, silencing people: This may be a UK based site but I'm rather sure they still have the concept of free speech there.
"even if not everyone in the group interacted with them, it's how people can be." It's not just or fair to censor a person you've never even interacted with or given a chance. [...]
QUOTE originally posted by Whit
[...] One solution I can think of that could be a compromise is to make blocks have an expiration, make them temporary, but-- this might overload Sally, so I'm not sure. [...]
QUOTE originally posted by Whit
[...] Ultimately, i'd rather deal with someone fake than someone who won't give me a chance. I'm a firm believe that exposure leads to growth and 'safe spaces' encourage stagnation. You need to face trouble in order to overcome it and learn social skills, which is something we should be encouraging in all ages. [...] We should push people to do just that, instead of allowing them an easy way out that will silence and harm in the process.
QUOTE originally posted by Whit
[...] This comes down to who gets hurt more, and i think the blockee gets hurt more than the blocker [...]
QUOTE originally posted by Whit
[...] But part of why I feel safe on Pokefarm is because no one can censor me over 'dislike' or 'bad vibes.' As long as I follow the rules I'm safe. And that's something I can agree with. No one gets to make up their own rules to shut me down.
Here I do not mean that they exit the conversation or stop listening. I mean if they stop anyone or everyone from seeing what you've said at all.
, if they interfered with what you said, that would be censoring, but not platforming you, giving you their time of day or simply not listening is not censoring.
If someone doesn't want to listen to you, you aren't actually owed their time. It might suck if you have something you want to tell that person specifically, but it's not illegal for them to have personal boundaries.
QUOTE originally posted by Whit
[...] If you don't want to see someone's profile, there's custom CSS for that. If you don't want to see certian terms, there's chrome extensions for that. [...]
QUOTE originally posted by RèÏSÉñ
[...] but what does blocking do that just ignoring or reporting them doesn't do? [...]
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